I am in the spectacular city of Ferrara in northern Italy, for the “Internazionale a Ferrara”, a festival where journalists from all over the globe get together to talk about their work. I was invited to speak about my blog on a panel with Claudio Rossi Marcelli, a gay father of three who has written a book called “Dear Daddy” about his experiences getting married and raising children (conceived with the help of a surrogate mother in the United States). Claudio also has a blog on the Internazionale website where he answers questions about parenting. Click here to see it.
The other panelist was Irene Bernardini, a prominent Italian psychologist and writer. She writes a column in the Italian “Vanity Fair” magazine and has a blog on their website in which she answers questions about relationships and parenting, click here to see it.
She has also recently published a book in Italian called “Bambini e Basta” (roughly translated : “Children and No More”).
But before I go into what we discussed on our panel, I want to make a brief diversion into the magnificent city of Ferrara.
Ferrara is a hidden jewel– that I am discovering after 19 years living in Italy. The city center is dominated by the enormous Estense Castle once home to the Dukes of Ferrara, complete with a water-filled moat. There are fabulous cobblestoned piazzas in the center of the city– The Piazza Trento-Trieste and the Piazza Cattedrale– that today were filled with an open-air market and hundreds of people out enjoying the balmy October weather. The city is flat and it seemed to me most of the residents get around on bikes, leaving them casually outside stores without locking them. I immediately borrowed a bike from my hotel so I could join the two-wheeled traffic.
Near the Castle stands the intimidating statue of Savonarola who stares down at anybody who stops and looks at him with angry stone eyes and arms raised in fury. Girolamo Savonarola, I’ve learned, was born in Ferrara in 1452, became a Domenican Friar, studied theology and moved to Florence where he began a passionate attack on what he saw was the moral degradation in city run by the Medici family. Renaissance was not for Savonarola. He overthrew the Medicis and became the leader of Florence.
He railed against luxury and frivolity and began what became known as the “bonfires of the vanities” urging the Florentines to bring their jewels, dresses, works of art, books and other items deemed morally unsound into the piazza to throw on a fire.
Savonarola himself eventually was burned at the stake in Florence in 1498. Contemplating this intimidating statue today, Savonarola reminded me of some modern day religious extremists.
Now back to the Festival and our panel on parenting. It was in a large cloister inside the Church of St. Paul. The cloister was packed with some 200 people.
In our talk we addressed a series of cliché’s about parenting and we each gave our own perspective. I will give some highlights based on the quickly scribbled notes I took during the event. I will paraphrase my colleagues comments as well as my own and I am curious to hear whether blog readers agree or disagree. I apologize to Claudio and Irene for comments I may have missed or where I may have misquoted them.
1. CHILDREN STRENGTHEN A MARRIAGE. True or False?
Claudio’s conclusion: If they don’t rip it apart, if the parents manage to stay together through all the challenges of child-raising, yes the marriage is strengthened.
Irene’s comment: Children are like a bomb dropped on a relationship. Children get in the middle and remain at the center of attention. They are little tyrants that occupy all the space and leave nothing for the parents. Parents need to make an enormous effort to maintain a time and space for themselves.
Both Irene and Claudio spoke about the symbolism of a parental double-bed that children climb into at night pushing the parents further apart.
I spoke about meeting my Italian husband in New York and falling in love with a charming, passionate and handsome Italian and then having a rude awakening after I moved to Rome and we had our first child and realized that we shared very little in terms of ideas about child-raising. Such simple matters as whether to let a child run barefoot in rain puddles became a source for fierce fights. I agreed wholeheartedly with Claudio’s conclusion that if a marriage isn’t ripped apart, it is strengthened.
2. CHILDREN ARE THE MAXIMUM FULFILLMENT FOR A WOMAN. True or False?
Claudio’s Conclusion: No, the new cool is no children. He said he is always running to a dear friend who is very wise and has no children for advice on my child-raising. She is happy, she is fulfilled.
Trisha’s comments: — Personally, I get my most of my fulfillment from my work, and my maximum frustrations from my being a mother. Child-raising is extremely difficult and is a choice one makes in life, but I see no reason why anyone, male or female, would need or should feel obliged to have children in order to feel fulfilled.
That said, I added that often my fulfillment or satisfaction with my children come in small moments of enjoying something the child says or does. I then gave the example of my 12-year-old Chiara calling me on the way to the conference to ask help with her Italian homework. She had to write a brief essay on a time in her life when something made her “really mad”. She called me assuming I would remember that moment, and I certainly remembered a few moments that the two of us laughed about.
Irene’s Comments: Being a mother is a challenge, an acrobatic act. Suggesting that a woman who does not have a child is not fulfilled is simply a nasty thought. Often people ask women who do not have children, “No children, how come?”, nobody ever thinks to ask a mother with children, “Children, how come?” The widespread acceptance that it is fully satisfying for a woman not to have children will be the next advance in feminism.
(Irene got a round of applause for this comment)
3. A PARENT IS HIS/HER CHILD’S BEST FRIEND. True or false?
Irene’s comments: — The idea that we should be friends with our children is rubbish. If you try to be a friend of your child you will find it is as though the child opens the door to a room for you, you go running through it only to smash against the wall on the other side of the door.
Trisha’s comments — I told the story of how with my first child I attempted to be his friend, to be understanding of some things he was doing as a teenager. I said the first time my son told me he had tried marijuana, I told him it was ok, that I had also tried it in college, and that I had also once tried hash brownies. The next thing I knew, to my great dismay, my son had announced to all his friends that when his Mom was at college she had been a dope-smoking, hash-brownie eating pot-head. A psychologist finally advised me that teenagers are not seeking complicity, they really want and need to hear the word “NO!” from their parents. (I got a big laugh from the audience on this one)
4. EVERY CHILD IS BEAUTIFUL TO HIS MOTHER. (translating here from a Neapolitan saying that Claudio introduced: “Ogni Scarrafone e’ bello a Mamma sua,” which directly translated means “every cockroach is beautiful to his Mama.” True or False?
Irene Comments: Yes, a child must feel as though he is the most beautiful in the world.
Claudio: My children are the most beautiful in the world.
Trisha: I also believe that my children are the most beautiful in the world, but on this topic I have been very much caught up in the Italian culture. From when their children are first born, Italians call them bello and bellissimo, bravo and bravissimo. Sometimes it seems a bit much, but it is also a charming tradition that boosts a child’s self esteem. To show a contrast with American culture, I noted that when I was a teenager I went through a difficult period when I had started a new high school and didn’t have many friends. One day driving along the highway in the car with my Mom, I turned to her and said, “Mom, am I pretty?”. My mother– I think letting a feminist streak come to the surface– responded immediately, “Trisha, you are such an interesting person.” I think she might have scarred me for life with that one!
(the audience got a big laugh hearing this anecdote)
4. ONCE THEY HAVE CHILDREN, A COUPLE DOES NOT HAVE SEX ANYMORE. True or False?
Irene, Claudio on I basically all agreed that indeed children do complicate one’s sex life.
Irene: I would say that couples who have children do not have much sex with each other any more (but plenty with others)
(big laugh from the crowd)
Trisha: I recounted how this spring my husband got so aggravated by our dismal sex life that he booked us a night in a 5-star hotel in Rome. I was aghast at the cost and he announced to me, “it is the only way we are going to have decent sex!” He was right.
5. PARENTS SHOULD BE COMPLETELY SINCERE AND HONEST WITH THEIR CHILDREN AND TELL THEM EVERYTHING BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND. True or False?
Claudio’s comments on this were particularly moving. He explained that you have to give a simple, straightforward, honest explanation to your children but at a level they can understand. Claudio lives in Geneva with his partner and their three children. He said one day his partner was leaving for work as his children were eating their breakfast. He kissed his partner who walked out the door. His 5-year-old daughter then looked up from her cereal bowl, spoon in hand and said to him, “Daddy, why did you marry a man and not a woman?” He told her, “I married Papa’ because I loved him. I loved him more than any other woman or man that I knew and I still love him more than any other man or woman.” His daughter said, “Ok,” and promptly returned to her cereal. That was enough of an explanation for her at that moment.
Trisha’s comments- I noted that with my own children I had to play it by ear on most occasions, but I have learned it is usually their choice not mine.
On September 11, 2001, when my son was five he saw the second plane crash into the Twin Towers live on television when the Italian TV program for children he was watching switched over to the news coverage. He also witnessed me for hours trying to get through to my sister on the phone in New York whose husband worked in the Twin Towers (he was fine). Nico had so many questions and concerns that went on for weeks, months, even years. At first I tried to brush over it, but he insisted. In the end I realized that he was interested and capable of talking about some of the devastating and complicated issues involved. My second example was my daughter when she became a pre-teen and I felt it was my duty to explain the birds and the bees to her. Several times I tried to have a chat with her and she was not interested. I still felt that she needed to know. One day I decided to take up the topic while we were going somewhere in the car. I was driving and she was sitting behind me. I started in again and it didn’t take long before she gave me a gigantic kick in the back of the car seat. “Mom, I don’t want to talk about this!” she announced. So, I gave up, figuring when she was ready, she would ask.
6. WORKING PART-TIME OF AT HOME IS BETTER FOR CHILDREN. True or False?
Our general conclusion: Part-time work is great, but working at home with children is impossible.
Claudio’s comments- Claudio had the crowd in stitches on this one describing how he tries to work at home at his apartment in Geneva. He explained that apartments in Switzerland often have a small bathroom near the front door to be used by guests. He said that bathroom has become his office because he frequently has to lock himself in their to escape from all the requests and demands of the children. He will be busily sitting on the toilet hammering out his blog on the computer, while the children are pounding on the door asking him for this or that.
Trisha — I explained that in graduate school I had dreamed of being a war-correspondent who travelled the globe, her children in tow, interviewing world leaders while my children sat and listened. I told the crowd that I imagined myself as an Oriana Fallaci traipsing through the Libyan desert with my baby in a baby carrier arriving a Muammar Qadaffi tent for an interview, a barrier-breaking, super-mamma-journalist. It didn’t take long after having children for me to realize that I was badly mistaken. You can’t do an interview with a world leader if you have a wailing child who is hungry or has a dirty diaper. I even tried to make my children along on a nice feature story once on truffle-sniffing dogs in the Umbrian town of Gubbio. Big mistake. No matter how serious or light the work, it is impossible to do it with children.
I described one of my working moments when I got caught. It was during the period of the death of Pope John Paul II and the election of Pope Benedict XVI. I foolishly thought that the Cardinals would take days to reach a decision on a new pope and ended up bringing my 10-year-old son down to St. Peter’s Square to see some black smoke. But when we arrived on Via della Conciliazione, big puffs of white smoke were coming out of the chimney of the Sistine Chapel. A new Pope had been elected. (more on that in an earlier post The Election of Pope Benedict XVI – A Mamma’s View)
8. PARENTAL ERRORS DAMAGE CHILDREN. True of False?
Irene’s comment — Children need to see that their parents make mistakes.
There were several other cliché’s that we tackled, but the comments were less interesting. I would love to hear any thoughts/opinions that my blog readers have about all of the above.
fascinating reflections!
It’s good to see you back.
Thanks Els! Good to be back.
These are wonderful! I would say I agree with all! There is no perfect world. I do think that we are in dire need of social, political and economic structures to support the choices couples make in life (with or without children). In the US, and I imagine in Italy, they are quite lacking. What an interesting session.
It was a fascinating session and I learned so much from the two people I was speaking with. I wish I had more time to talk to Claudio about his personal experiences. Gay marriage is not legal in Italy so he married somewhere else, and then got a surrogate mom in the United States to give birth first to his twin girls (five-years-old) and now to a son (1-year-old). Someone told me that Claudio wrote in his book that the surrogate Mom had four of her own children and said she was being a surrogate so she could earn the money to pay for them to go to college. Claudio and his husband and their children live in Geneva, Switzerland. I had the impression that he is the most dedicated parent on the planet.
Trish, great blog!!
Don’t you think though that the fulfilment that you get from children is an extremely basic, instinctive one. Male or female that you are, this is how Nature has programmed us, to make sure that the specie survives. This is why you cannot replace the need to procreate with the need to have a career, it’s like saying Will I Eat or Will I Drink?
We are sadly confusing the two needs because we still assume that women should take responsibility for bringing up the family, and be fulfilled enough, while leaving men free to pursue more fulfilments.
Rather than having to choose between kids or not, we should really fight for sharing equally the joy and fulfilments of raising kids ;-))
Thank you for your comment Allegra. I agree that we should fight to share the joy and fulfillment of raising kids, but I think in my situation at least, everything ultimately falls on the Mamma. I am not saying that is an Italian way. I think that is just the way it is in many cultures and change takes a lot of time.
Hi Trisha
I found this blog really interesting and certainly I agree with what has been said! I believe in honesty with my girls (one turning 10 in a week and the other turning 7 at the end of the month) in everything. My husband’s position was made redundant in June while we lived in Barbados and as we pay a mortgage on our “holiday” home here in Abruzzo we decided that it would be best to come stay here as this was our safe haven. Our children understand that we are on a very tight budget while Daddy looks for new work and I would honestly say they are happier for it! It has been a huge change for us as my husband worked 6 days a week from 7.30am until 10.30pm every night and now we suddenly have him home all the time! I sometime have to catch myself when he makes a decision or disciplines them, to not disagree with him, especially in front of the girls. This also comes down to differences in the way eachof us was raised and we sometimes have to compromise. I also home school so this is interesting too with him being here and we have had to lay down the law with him not to interrupt! It all comes down to good communication! As for a sex life, well as you said anyone with kids wil know it is not easy and my husband totally agrees with what your husband did! Raising kids is totally challenging, life changing and rewarding. Add to our little mix of learning a new language in an area of Italy where very little English is spoken the frustrations of raising children increases. I could go on forever! I do know one thing, through it all we have a lot of love and laughter. We have laid the boundaries and continue to do so as we reach each new stage. It is also reassuring when you know that friends and other people in the world are going through the same experiences as you!
Trisha –first and foremost, I like you name! What a wonderful comment and an inspiring personal story. It is so amazing that you as a couple were able to take a difficult, challenging and probably frustrating situation, having your position made redundant, and switching gears, doing something new, rising to the challenge and give yourselves as you say, “a lot of love and laughter.” I think I could learn a lot from you and your family.
As a feminist mum, I enjoyed and agreed with a lot of this. I especially appreciate the refreshing perspective from the gay dad. Sounds like a wonderful talk.
Michelle, I am glad you enjoyed this post. I agree, Claudio, the gay dad, was fantastic. He is so charismatic, so sure of himself, I think he inspires confidence in all those around him. His book “Dear Daddy” has been a big success in Italy and they are making it into a movie. I told him he should get it published in English because I thought a lot of people in the US would be interested in his story. But he told me his story is not as unique in the US and there have already been similar books published.
Hi Trisha,
This is one of my favorite blog posts that you’ve done (and not just because I love Ferrara, having been there with my son and my Italian cousins, who wanted to show us a charming town).
I wish I’d read this before I had children, because I did try to work at home when my son was little. Supposedly I could write in one room, while he played in another. That never happened. He always wanted to be in the same room with me and I always worried about what he was doing if I couldn’t actually see him (since he was clever about finding ways to get out of the house or investigate this or that).
It was easier for us when I worked outside the home and/or he was in preschool, with other children to play with. But I did bring him on some travel writing adventures, starting with Disneyland when he was only four. He enjoyed the trips, was a cheerful companion, and provided great quotes. He had a unique point of view, and I worked him into the story. Much easier than travel writing with a spouse (don’t get me started).
Having a career and having children are fulfilling in much different ways. Children will give you things that your work can’t and vice versa. It’s not an either/or situation. Same with work and marriage, as your stories point out. It’s always a balancing act. Things get out of whack. Children, kids, marriage, it all takes effort. You have to like having a complicated life.
Hi Candace, thank you for this comment. Sounds like you were much more successful than I was at bringing kids along on assignment. I fully agree with your conclusion that work, marriage and children are always a balancing act and things get out of whack.
As it happens, this very moment I have had an afternoon of feeling totally out of whack. I am now taking deep breaths of cholorine-filled air as I sit by a swimming pool writing at 9pm while my son, Nico, is doing his water polo practice. We had a tense dinner at home before coming as my husband and I jostled and tangled over who would deal with a series of kids-related appointments tonight and tomorrow. This afternoon I’ve dealt with the Hip Hop dance class, and catechism class and didn’t want to deal with water polo. My husband felt he needed to stay home to help our youngest with some Italian homework. Fortunatly my mother is visiting and she managed to make dinner for the family to coincide with that one brief half-hour window when we were all home this evening. Then one of my daughters ended up in tears at dinner saying that I never take her to school. Ah, the guilt. Mamma mia, it works every time. I will definitely be taking her to school tomorrow.
As I grabbed by bags to head out the door to water polo, I yelled at my son “grab the two water bottles I left by the door, if I don’t fill up the leaking water tank on my car, the engine might explode before we even get there.”
I was tense and serious, but my mother thought it was hilarious and burst out laughing. Perhaps one day I will see the humor in our family chaos but today I am just out of whack and out of sorts.
Every child is beautiful to his/her mother. My parents/grandparents always made me feel like I was the most beautiful child in the world, even though of course I was not! The reverse is also true. When I was a child, there was no more beautiful face in the world than my mother’s. I remember Mom saying disparaging things about her own nose, her mouth, her body, just as every woman does. I thought she was nuts! She was always perfect in my child eyes; until I got older & realized I inherited her thick ankles & narrow shoulders, LOL
It’s OK for children to see their parents make mistakes. How the parent handles or rectifies the mistakes are more important lessons for the child than the mistakes.
Barbara, I agree with you on both points. On the question of rectifying the mistakes, that is a very important point that we did not mention on the panel. You are absolutely right, “how the parent handles or rectifies the mistakes are more important lessons for the child than the mistakes.” I will remember that and quote you on that next time. Thank you!
Dear Trish, great blog!!…but may I disagree (please forgive the very simplified language for sake of understanding).
The “Fulfilment through Kids vs Fulfilment through Work”‘s battle is a trap. It’s like ‘Shall I live without water or without food?’. The need to procreate and pass on our genes (fulfilment through kids) is the strongest instinct that humans are born with. Everything else is secondary to this need: sex and its enjoyment, health, ambition, need of security, search of beauty, fear of age… So there is no point discussing it, we cannot go without kids.
But here is the trap: our male-dominated society always sells to us like that -Do you want a family or a career (and it is only a rhetorical question anyway)?
Women are dependent – are kept dependent- from men to provide shelter, security and food; it’s a trade so that men can be sure to pass on their genes also, and keep track of their offsprings. It’s the only way they can keep a balance between the sex, they think. Capping female independence is the only weapon that males have, hence the glass roof and unconscious bias against women that you find in working environments everywhere.
SO, we modern women are going completely off track and falling right in the trap: the road to real sex equality shouldn’t be “we will go without kids and have a career instead”, but “if you are interested on passing on you genes, show me that you are capable of sharing EQUALLY all the burdens (and joys) of raising a family”.
Women haven’t realised yet their power: women nowadays can go on as a specie without men, but men need women to insure their specie survival.
So, please, women everywhere: kids, career but no dishes, thanks :))
Allegra, you may have made the comment twice, but you said it differently and I find all your comments fascinating, so I am publishing them both. Thanks for your contribution and please continue to read and comment.
I’m returning to Rome (with a few days in Naples first) from October 18-28th… I’m rereading some of your older posts and catching up on your new ones in anticipation!!!! I can’t wait to see Rome again!
Rebecca — Great to hear from you again….I am so glad you are reading my blog, I thought maybe you had given up. You have inspired me to work on a post on Artemisia Gentilleschi, that I still need to do a lot of work on. I have just finished Alexandra LaPierre’s amazing book, “Artemisia”, and I need to get Susan Vreeland’s “The Passion of Artemisia.” I also want to explore her haunts in Rome — they are all places I go all the time — Via del Corso, Via Margutta, Via Babuino, Via Ripetta, Santo Spirito in Sassia. And, more importantly I need to go to Florence and Naples to see her works there. Will you be seeing any of her works when you are in Naples? As far as I know, there are no Artemisia works in Rome. What a shame. Boy do I admire that woman though — passion, determination, willpower, and pure talent. If you feel like it, stop by the AP office when you are in Rome, I would love to meet you. We are at Piazza Grazioli 5, on Via della Gatta.
Trisha, thank you! I would love that! We’re still in Naples… and I spent the afternoon with Artemsia and three of her paintings at the Capidimonte. You are in luck, there ARE Artemsia works in Rome!
Spada Gallery:
Piazza Capo di Ferro, 3, 00186 Rome,
Phone: 066 861158
Madonna and Child
Woman Playing a Lute
In Naples I saw three works (Judith Slaying Holofornes) the Naples copy – is AMAZING. They didn’t seem to have Lucretia unfortunately, must be loaned out.
Naples:
Museo di Capolodimonte:
Via Miano, 2, 80131 Naples
Phone: 081 7499111
Judith Slaying Holofernes
Lucretia
Laboratorio di Conservazione di Capodimonte, Naples:
The Adoration of the Magi
The Martyrdom of St Januarius in the Amphitheatre at Pozzuoli
Florence:
Casa Buonarroti Galleria:
The Angel
Palazzo Pitti:
Piazza Pitti, 1 50125 Florence
Judith and her Maidservant
The Penitent Magdalene
Uffizi:
Judith Slaying Holofernes
Soprintendenza alle Gallerie:
Minerva
I’ll let you know when we get to Rome, thank you so much for the offer! That would be amazing!
I’m so happy you are into Artemesia ! She is my absolute favorite artist. In Rome, I love Spada, it’s a great excuse to go there.
And thank you so much for reminding me of her Rome haunts. I am going to all those places now for sure!
Thank you Rebecca!! As usual, I am way behind on everything, but I will get over to the Spada gallery and see the Madonna and Child and Woman Playing a Lute by Artemisia. And one of these days I will get that post done!!
I love seeing a post! And this was a doosey – what a wonderfully thought provoking piece. Bart and I have no children, however over the years I have seen friends and relatives with their kids. I have to say that to one degree or another I agree with everyone. I particularly liked the fellow’s answer to his little girl about why he married a man. Funny, but the simplest answers are so often all the kids want.Thanks for a great piece.
Thank you Adri for all your support. I also loved Claudio’s answer to his daughter short, simple and so heartfelt. I am glad you enjoyed the post.
Trisha! It’s been a whirlwind shofar. Finally stopping for a quick second with wifi. Going to Spada to see Artemesia! I’ll take pics. I’m going to do my own long overdue entries on Artemesia. I can’t wait to read yours. I’ll take pics of I can – tryin to make an artmesia your for admirers to follow in Naples Rome and Florence with user friendly pics. I would love to stop by – let me figure out where your locale is and how it fits into our sometimes lengthy wandering! Xo Rebecca
Rebecca — Great to hear from you. I can’t wait to see your Artemisia pics. I am wondering if I am every going to get my Artemisa post done. Today was in Sermoneta, a little town an hour south of Rome to do an Entertainment story on the TV Series on the Borgias. It was great to get out of the city and I had such fun. The Borgias were some pretty interesting characters too. I hopefully will get a post done on them as well.